Over the last six years, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has seen an accelerated pace of change that has impacted Saudi professionals and particularly Saudi female professionals. As part of Vision 2030, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia launched a number of initiatives aimed at increasing the percentage of women employed in leadership positions.
In this podcast, Imran Mufti, our Saudi-based projects partner, and Sara Aalamri, partner at AlGhazzawi & Partners, discuss the changes that have occurred so far as a result of Vision 2030. Sara also shares her personal experience of becoming a Woman in Leadership in the Kingdom.
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Transcript
Welcome to the latest episode of Gowling WLG's Listen Up podcast where we look at a range of topics trending in the legal and commercial landscape.
Imran Mufti: Hello, and welcome to the second podcast in the Gowling WLG in the Gulf series. Today, I have the pleasure of being joined by Sara Aalamri. Sara is one of the first Saudi women to obtain a licence to practice law in Saudi Arabia and she is a partner in the law firm of AlGhazzawi & Partners based in their Jeddah office.
Sara, thanks very much for agreeing to speak to on this podcast today. Perhaps you could give a few introductory words around your practice, your background and where you are right now.
Sara Aalamri: Hi Imran. Thank you very much for having me. So my name is Sara Aalamri. I am a partner in AlGhazzawi & Partners. I am a Saudi lawyer. I graduated among the first set of female law students to study law at the Saudi University, King Abdulaziz University, in 2008 and in 2013, I became one of the first Saudi women with a licence to practice law in Saudi Arabia.
I also earned my LLM degree from Boston University School of Law and I was honoured to be featured in the school's commemorative book and celebration of its 150th anniversary among the 150 alumni with notable achievements around the world.
I was also honoured to be appointed by His Eminence the Saudi Minister of Justice, to serve as a member in the lawyer's committee of Makkah region under the Saudi Bar Association. I am also an officer of the Arab Regional Forum under the International Bar Association.
At Al Ghazawi and Partners, I practice law more specifically, focusing on commercial issues, commercial matters and commercial disputes and arbitration. Yes, so glad to be here and to be part of this podcast.
Imran: Fantastic. Sara, you will have witnessed the massively accelerated pace of change in Saudi over the last six years, can you give us an insight as to how that change has impacted Saudi professionals and female professionals in particular?
Sara: So, to begin to discuss the empowerment of women and women's role in Saudi Arabia I think we have to know that gender equality is deeply routed in Islam and that is based on the belief that all men and women are equal in humanity, spiritual worth, rights and responsibilities. So, among the multiple authorities, there is a saying by Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) that women are the sisters of men and that is within the meaning that they are equals and peers.
So this applies, also to the Saudi legal system, which is derived from Islamic principles. Women empowerment, as part of Vision 2030 aims to promote women's engagement in all sectors, so Saudi Arabia developed a training and orientation programme that aims to improve the skills of working women and increase the percentage of women employed in leadership positions.
Even laws and regulations were amended to reflect this goal. Taking for example the wording of Article 3 of the Saudi labour law which stated that "all citizens are equal in the right to work". The additional wording that was added indicated that discrimination may not be based on gender, disability, age or any other form or basis for discrimination whether at the time of employment or during the performance of work.
So, Vision 2030 aims to achieve this balance between genders in civil service and leadership roles and reforms are also aimed to ensure the protection of women's rights. In the legal profession on its own I think I can testify that by granting me and my colleagues the opportunity to study law at a Saudi university and to be licenced by the Saudi Ministry of Justice to practice law, in Saudi Arabia is a huge step in itself towards the involvement of women and their engagement in legal practice.
And looking at recent statistics within the Saudi Bar Association from September 2022, those numbers reflected a growing base of Saudi female trainees. So there were up to 5100 male trainees and about 2500 female trainees registered to earn their law practice licence from the Ministry of Justice at that time, which reflects an increasing number of female law graduates and potential future female licenced attorneys in Saudi Arabia.
Imran: Thanks, Sara. I think you have done really well in outlining what the legislative framework is for female lawyers and professionals and also the opportunities that that creates. Are we at a stage where you could say there is some form of positive discrimination, or that is not the way it is working right now?
Sara: I think I said in an old interview about ten years ago that there will be a time where our next generation is going to grow up and find men and women equally working side by side in Saudi Arabia that inequality becomes just not part of the equation anymore. So I think this is the case, we are setting up an example for our next generations to understand that there is no inequality or discrimination inherited based on gender or any other factor, that the deciding factor becomes competence, skill and talent and I think this is the message adopted by Vision 2030.
Imran: Thanks, Sara. I am going to step back a little bit now and just go through and discuss the process of actually qualifying as a lawyer in Saudi. Is the process similar to the way in which you qualified? And were there any particular challenges that you found along that journey, perhaps things that you, you know, with hindsight would do differently if you had the opportunity?
Sara: So, the formal process for becoming a qualified lawyer, to acquire three years of experience after earning a Bachelor's Degree in law or one year of experience after earning a Master's Degree in law and an exemption from this requirement for anyone who earns a Doctorate degree so the process mainly remains the same. The only change that seemed to have occurred is on the number of years of experience required after earning a Bachelor's Degree which was reduced from three years to two years now. Another option was actually introduced by the judicial training platform, which now offers training programmes that help trainee law graduates to fulfil the requirements to become licenced lawyers.
From my experience, it was a matter of time and having patience until the day we were invited by the Ministry of Justice to submit applications to qualify as lawyers. It was a matter of time after I had accumulated the required amount of experience, after earning my Masters Degree that I had enough credentials to show for my experience and earned that law licence from the Ministry of Justice, but other than that, the process for qualifying remains predominantly the same.
Imran: And like you, a lot of the lawyers in Saudi right now, men and women usually go outside the kingdom to the UK, US or Australia to pursue post-graduate studies. How important is that and do you think we are going to get to the stage where that is not going to be "necessary" for you to really develop as a lawyer in Saudi?
Sara: I think taking into consideration that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is around 120 years old, so that is when the foundation, establishment of the legal system, regulations, economic and societal infrastructure had begun, there are many examples to be learned from other legal systems, which are older and apply different methods of law-making and extraction of legal rule that is applicable. It just adds to a well-rounded background when it comes to studying, understanding law and practising law as a matter of fact and expanding the sources and horizon of knowledge to be gained from those former examples.
I think no one should be limiting themselves, if capable and the opportunity presents itself, to prevent themselves from learning something about law in a different place or in a different jurisdiction.
I think at this time, where international practice integrates dealing with and working with people from different jurisdictions in different places all around the world, that this grants that footing for bridging the gap where someone in Saudi is and particularly a lawyer practising in Saudi as a professional in this legal field is able to speak the same language with someone who is practising law in a different jurisdiction.
So, I think that it can only add to a person's knowledge and experience to have this exposure.
Imran: Ok. If you were to give advice to budding Saudi law graduates that are looking to really develop a legal career in the kingdom, what would the three points be that you would say to them based on the benefit of the experience that you have gone through, both in terms of pitfalls and maybe short cuts, to achieving a successful legal career?
Sara: So, I think the first one is, have faith in yourself and do not stand in your own way. The second one would be, work as hard as you can and learn as much as you can, and this profession only keeps developing and you have to keep developing yourself, whether it is in a specific area of practice you choose or a different area, the learning process does not end. And, the third one would be, even in a difficult situation, I think what helped me the most making the best out of something coming out with a lesson learnt with some experience from each and every difficult situation and turning it into a learning opportunity, is something that goes a long way.
Imran: Thanks, sound advice Sara. A final question. Do you have any regrets, would you have done anything differently over the last 15-18 years?
Sara: No.
Imran: Short and sweet.
Sara: I mean, as I mentioned I work as hard as I can, learn as much as I can and I love what I do. My goals, values and my own self-worth are determined by the goals and standards I set for myself. So, in my own pursuit of happiness and fulfilment, I think that I remind myself of these matters every day. So, this is how I go through life day by day.
Imran: Excellent. Well, you sound very content and at peace with yourself, if I can use that expression. Sara, thank you very much and look forward to speaking again.
Sara: Thank you very much Imran.
Imran: Thank you.
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